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[History of MAHJONG - Front page] History of MAHJONG - Newsgroup archives 2000-12-19
The following archived messages may be searched from the mahjong newsgroup (rec.games.mahjong) with the following text strings: "Great Mah Jongg Sets And Acesories"; "History (was: Great Mah Jongg Sets And Acesories)"
[Below is a reproduction of messages posted in the mahjong newsgroup (rec.games.mahjong) - 1 From: Mark Warden - view profile Date: Tues, Dec 19 2000 5:26 pm Email: Mark Warden <m...@searchenginesleuth.com> Groups: rec.games.mahjong Not yet ratedRating: show options Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author Looking for some great Mah Jongg Sets and Accesories then check out Mah Jongg Maven http://www.mahjonggmaven.com/ Mark A. Warden CIM http://www.searchenginesleuth.com/ --------------------- Mah Jongg Maven-Mah Jongg is an ancient Chinese game that dates back as far as 960 A.D. Some say that Mah Jong was Confucius' faviorte game! This game is now popular all over the world. I have sought out the best items needed for this game. --------------------- Reply ==============================END OF MESSAGE===== 2 From: Tom Sloper - view profile Date: Sat, Dec 23 2000 7:05 pm Email: Tom Sloper <toms...@sloperama.com> Groups: rec.games.mahjong Not yet ratedRating: show options Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author Mark Warden <m...@searchenginesleuth.com> wrote: >Mah Jongg Maven-Mah Jongg is an ancient Chinese game that dates back as >far as 960 A.D. No. If you would read the postings on the newsgroup, you would see that the game in fact is in no way any older than 1850. >Some say that Mah Jong was Confucius' faviorte game! And all those who say that are mistaken. Taken in by the hype. >This game is now popular all over the world. You are not telling us anything we don't already know. The readers of this newsgroup are from all over the world. >I have sought out the best >items needed for this game. Yes, well, all you need to do is read the newsgroup's FAQs. Tom Sloper www.sloperama.com/mahjongg Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Reply ==============================END OF MESSAGE===== 3 From: Mark Warden - view profile Date: Sun, Dec 24 2000 12:35 am Email: Mark Warden <m...@searchenginesleuth.com> Groups: rec.games.mahjong Not yet ratedRating: show options Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author Tom Sloper wrote: > Mark Warden <m...@searchenginesleuth.com> wrote: > >Mah Jongg Maven-Mah Jongg is an ancient Chinese game that dates back > as > >far as 960 A.D. > No. If you would read the postings on the newsgroup, you would see that > the game in fact is in no way any older than 1850. Although the game Mah Jongg as it is generally played today can only be traced back to the end of the last century, the line of games that evolved to Mah Jongg is long and extensive. From around 800 AD card games were played which resembled the way Mah Jongg is played, in the fact that you have to collect Chows, Pungs and Kongs. The cards used in these games resembled the money used in those days. Interesting though that you took the time to cut and paste the signature file. The original post was: Looking for some great Mah Jongg Sets and Accessories then check out Mah Jongg Maven http://www.mahjonggmaven.com/ > Yes, well, all you need to do is read the newsgroup's FAQs. The group welcomes all postings of the following kinds: 1. Discussions of Mahjong rules, play, and strategy. 2. Announcements of club meetings and tournaments. Note #3 3. Advertisements of Mahjong related products, with a repost frequency of at most once every month. 4. Private "for sale" or "want to buy" notices, with a repost frequency of at most once every month. I actually read the older FAQ awhile back but the newer one is about the same. Mark A. Warden CIM http://www.searchenginesleuth.com/ --------------------------------- Guides Of Maui http://www.guidesofmaui.com/ -Our Maui tour guides will take you to secluded Maui Hawaii locations featuring towering waterfalls, bamboo tropical rain forests, beautiful white sandy beaches, exciting hiking trails, and for the honeymooners, intimate, romantic spots in paradise. --------------------------------- - Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - > Tom Sloper > www.sloperama.com/mahjongg > Sent via Deja.com > http://www.deja.com/ Reply ==============================END OF MESSAGE===== Subject changed: History (was: Great Mah Jongg Sets And Acesories) 4 From: Tom Sloper - view profile Date: Tues, Dec 26 2000 7:03 am Email: Tom Sloper <toms...@sloperama.com> Groups: rec.games.mahjong Rating: (1 user) show options Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author Mark Warden wrote: >>>Mah Jongg Maven-Mah Jongg is an ancient Chinese game that dates back >> as >>>far as 960 A.D. I had replied (oh so seriously): >> No. If you would read the postings on the newsgroup, you would see that >> the game in fact is in no way any older than 1850. Now Mark Warden writes: >Although the game Mah Jongg as it is generally played today can only be >traced back to the end of the last century, the line of games that evolved >to Mah Jongg is long and extensive. From around 800 AD card games were >played which resembled the way Mah Jongg is played, in the fact that you >have to collect Chows, Pungs and Kongs. The cards used in these games >resembled the money used in those days. So then, your definition of "Mah-Jongg" would seem to be much more inclusive of distantly-related games, and ancestral games, than the definition accepted by the majority of the group. One prominent precursor game was "Matiao" which used a deck of 40 cards. According to your definition, per your original statement, "Matiao=Mah-Jongg." You might have noted in the recent thread on history that the rest of us would disagree with this equation? We in this newsgroup are striving to clear up the many misapprehensions about mah-jongg. One of the biggest misapprehensions is that "mah-jongg is thousands of years old [and was even played by Confucius]." Please understand that this is the reason for my (admittedly humorless) reply to your (somewhat glib) statement that "Mah Jongg is an ancient Chinese game that dates back as far as 960 A.D." If playing cards as used in the United States today were originally created in about the 1600s or 1700s (let's say), from Tarot cards which were originally created (let's say) around 1000 AD or so, then it would not be correct to say that today's playing cards "date back as far as 1000 AD" -- playing cards not being the same as Tarot cards. We are only talking about the son, not about the father, when we say "Mah- Jongg dates back to the mid-to-late 1800s." We are not disinterested in the precursor games, but they were not mah-jongg. Tom Tom Sloper http://www.sloperama.com/mahjongg Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Reply ==============================END OF MESSAGE===== 5 From: Mark Warden - view profile Date: Tues, Dec 26 2000 9:19 pm Email: Mark Warden <m...@searchenginesleuth.com> Groups: rec.games.mahjong Not yet ratedRating: show options Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author - Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Tom Sloper wrote: > So then, your definition of "Mah-Jongg" would seem to be much more > inclusive of distantly-related games, and ancestral games, than the > definition accepted by the majority of the group. One prominent > precursor game was "Matiao" which used a deck of 40 cards. According to > your definition, per your original statement, "Matiao=Mah-Jongg." You > might have noted in the recent thread on history that the rest of us > would disagree with this equation? > We in this newsgroup are striving to clear up the many misapprehensions > about mah-jongg. One of the biggest misapprehensions is that "mah-jongg > is thousands of years old [and was even played by Confucius]." Please > understand that this is the reason for my (admittedly humorless) reply > to your (somewhat glib) statement that "Mah Jongg is an ancient Chinese > game that dates back as far as 960 A.D." > If playing cards as used in the United States today were originally > created in about the 1600s or 1700s (let's say), from Tarot cards which > were originally created (let's say) around 1000 AD or so, then it would > not be correct to say that today's playing cards "date back as far as > 1000 AD" -- playing cards not being the same as Tarot cards. We are > only talking about the son, not about the father, when we say "Mah- > Jongg dates back to the mid-to-late 1800s." We are not disinterested > in the precursor games, but they were not mah-jongg. I might agree in theory Tom with what you are saying here but historically you do have to look at how the game developed to date its origins. According to your definition, years down the road, it could be said that "Mah Jongg" (as played in the future) dated back to the 21st cent). I also admit you probably know an awful lot more about the game than I do, but as I would take a more historical view (not personal) than you it is easy to see how we could disagree. In a historical view, Mah Jongg is believed to have originated from one form of card paying and during the first stage had 40 pieces which (admittedly) were entirely different from those of today. Down to the 17th Cent. the number of tiles increased to 108. These had the portraits of the 108 Brigands of a then famous novel. Now as time elapsed the number of tiles increased until there were more than 160, having many kinds of bonus tiles, including Flower tiles. Revolutionist appeared and cut down the number to make the game more interesting. After this happened then rules and regulations were then decided on and (I would think you would agree) have remained the same until the present day (depending on what type of Mah Jongg you play). The Flower tiles that we now find in the Mah Jongg set are what remains of pre revolutionary days. And we could go on and on..... It really just depends on your point of view. But no matter what your point of view is if you are looking for some great Mah Jongg Sets and Accessories then check out Mah Jongg Maven http://www.mahjonggmaven.com/ Mark A. Warden CIM http://www.searchenginesleuth.com/ --------------------------------- Haleakala Bike Co-Maui's most experienced, most affordable downhill bike tour. Sunrise Tour- $69.00, Summit Deluxe- $59.00, Haleakala Express- $49.00. Freedom and independence of biking at your own pace! 1-888-922-2453. Reply ==============================END OF MESSAGE===== 6 From: Tom Sloper - view profile Date: Fri, Dec 29 2000 9:25 am Email: Tom Sloper <toms...@sloperama.com> Groups: rec.games.mahjong Not yet ratedRating: show options Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author Mark wrote: >I might agree in theory Tom with what you are saying here but historically >you do have to look at how the game developed to date its origins. I agree with you that it is important to consider the games that led to the development of mah-jongg. I just said that here recently, in fact. >According >to your definition, years down the road, it could be said that "Mah Jongg" >(as played in the future) dated back to the 21st cent). No. According to my definition, Mah-Jongg originated somewhere between 1850 and the 1880s (exact date unknown). >In a historical view, Mah Jongg is believed to have originated from one form >of card paying and during the first stage had 40 pieces which (admittedly) >were entirely different from those of today. Yes, I agree that Mah-Jongg originated from those card games. Similarly, I originated from my parents. My parents were born in the 1920s, but I myself was born later. It would be inappropriate to say "Tom Sloper dates back to the 1920s" just because I originated from my parents who were born then. >And we could go on and on..... >It really just depends on your point of view. My point of view is that I was born (originated; date back to) a date considerably later than the 1920s. Similarly, mah-jongg originated (dates back to; was "born") sometime between 1850 and 1890. It is inaccurate (and misleading) to say that mah-jongg existed prior to that time. Tom Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Reply ==============================END OF MESSAGE===== 7 From: Tom Sloper - view profile Date: Fri, Dec 29 2000 6:29 pm Email: Tom Sloper <toms...@sloperama.com> Groups: rec.games.mahjong Not yet ratedRating: show options Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author Follow-up. In hindsight, I probably overreacted to Mark's post. Nothing against the Mah Jongg Maven. Quite the opposite. I have purchased stuff there and was more than satisfied with the service. The catalog is amazingly comprehensive (it's the closest thing to one-stop shopping for players of American-style mah-jongg). I do not know what Mark's relationship with the Maven is. Just don't like to see those old myths refuse to die... Next time somebody digs them up again I'll try to stifle those urges. I'll put a "sock" in it. "Tanks" for listening. -- Tom Sloper toms...@sloperama.com http://www.sloperama.com Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Reply ==============================END OF MESSAGE===== 8 From: Mark Warden - view profile Date: Fri, Dec 29 2000 9:28 pm Email: Mark Warden <m...@searchenginesleuth.com> Groups: rec.games.mahjong Not yet ratedRating: show options Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author Thanks Tom. Actually I do there internet marketing. Mainly Search Engine Stuff, but since I also do NG postings and use the sig file as a kind of add. I get the sig file info from the clients description. I am sorry if that offended anyone here. I thought posting the Maj Jongg Maven Site once a month was acceptable to the FAQ. What I did not realize was it happened that the sig file was also the Mah Jongg Maven one. But with all this said I would still defend what I posted. I am always willing to discuss something. I understand your point of view but as a Historian do not really accept it, but I also allow for differences in opinion. I am sorry though if this caused any problem here, that was not my intent. Anyway thanks Tom it was interesting and , believe it or not appreciated. Mahalo (Thank You). Mark A. Warden CIM Certified Internet Marketer Search Engine Sleuth, LLC http://www.searchenginesleuth.com/ --------------------- Mah Jongg Maven- http://www.mahjonggmaven.com/ for all your Mah Jongg Needs. (Sig Changed In Deference to Tom {MW}) Me Ke Mahalo (With my gratitude). --------------------- - Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Tom Sloper wrote: > Follow-up. In hindsight, I probably overreacted to Mark's post. > Nothing against the Mah Jongg Maven. Quite the opposite. I have > purchased stuff there and was more than satisfied with the service. The > catalog is amazingly comprehensive (it's the closest thing to one-stop > shopping for players of American-style mah-jongg). > I do not know what Mark's relationship with the Maven is. Just don't > like to see those old myths refuse to die... Next time somebody digs > them up again I'll try to stifle those urges. I'll put a "sock" in > it. "Tanks" for listening. > -- > Tom Sloper > toms...@sloperama.com > http://www.sloperama.com > Sent via Deja.com > http://www.deja.com/ Reply ==============================END OF MESSAGE===== 9 From: Tom Sloper - view profile Date: Sat, Dec 30 2000 11:33 am Email: Tom Sloper <toms...@sloperama.com> Groups: rec.games.mahjong Not yet ratedRating: show options Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author Mark wrote: >I am sorry if that offended anyone here. I thought posting the Maj Jongg Maven Site once a month was acceptable to the FAQ. The commercial posts are not a problem. It was the promulgation of old erroneous/misleading mah-jongg myths that I was disagreeing with. > But with all this said I would still defend what I posted. I am always willing to discuss something. I understand your point of view but as a Historian do not really accept it, but I also allow for differences in opinion. I am sorry though if this caused any problem here, that was not my intent. Anyway thanks Tom it was interesting and , believe it or not appreciated. Mahalo (Thank You). I appreciate that. You are invited to read the recent historical discussion we had here (thread: "Why does kong have precedence over chow" from Dec. 9 to date), and keep your eyes peeled for the next History post I'm presently working on. Cheers and Happy New Millennium, Tom Tom Sloper http://www.sloperama.com/mahjongg Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Reply ==============================END OF MESSAGE===== 10 From: J. R. Fitch - view profile Date: Sat, Dec 30 2000 4:06 pm Email: "J. R. Fitch" <jrfi...@ninedragons.com> Groups: rec.games.mahjong Not yet ratedRating: show options Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author Regarding the discussion of mahjong's history: In 1992 Electronic Arts put my "Hong Kong Mahjong Pro" in a beautiful retail box. I was immensely proud that they had spent such a huge amount of money on its design. But, I was really bummed by the verbiage on the back. Without my advice or consent they wrote "Join a three-thousand year old obsession ...as the ancient tradition of mahjong collides with state-of-the-art game technology". Ugh. I strongly support Tom's stalwart pursuit of the objective truth. Tom has been in the position where he could have exploited the same mistruths for his own gain but instead chose the higher ground. Still, we can be sympathetic with those who are susceptible to romantic notions. After all, "three-thousand year old obsession" does have a nice allure, even if it's pure fantasy. -- J. R. Fitch Nine Dragons Software 351 Ulloa Street San Francisco, California 94127 415.664.3474 v. 415.564.3161 f. http://www.ninedragons.com jrfi...@ninedragons.com Reply ==============================END OF MESSAGE===== |
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