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Question about "bao":<br /> <br /> Player A has displayed two pungs of Red and White Dragons (hence the<br /> Big Three Dragons Alert is in effect). No other pai is on display<br /> (Flowers except).<br /> <br /> Player C discarded a Green Dragon. Player A punged and discarded a pai.<br /> Now Player C is bound to lose with respect to the Big Three Dragons<br /> Alert.<br /> <br /> At this point, since Player A has displayed three sets of Honours,<br /> another alert (Pure Honours Alert) is now also in effect.<br /> <br /> Player B discarded a South. Player A said "PUNG", then discarded a pai.<br /> Player A is now calling for only one pai, and Player B is bound to lose<br /> with respect to the Pure Honours Alert.<br /> <br /> QUESTION: If Player A draws a North and wins (he has been calling for<br /> North), he now has a winning hand containing both Pure Honours and Big<br /> Three Dragons. Who shall be bound to pay (i.e., "bao")? Player B or<br /> Player C, or should it be both? Why? (Answers to "why" may have very<br /> little to do with any rule set. Just want to learn more opinions of<br /> others.)<br /> <br /> [Answer can be found in the International Mahjong Rules.]<br /> ----------------------------------------------------------------------<br /> <br /> 2. What's new at IMJ:<br /> <br /> Recent major updates to the IMJ Infoweb are now completed. The IMJ<br /> Learning Centre is now enhanced with the following information:<br /> - International Mahjong Rules - a comprehensive rule set in both<br /> English and Chinese.<br /> - IMJ EasyPlay - a detailed learning guide with illustrations and<br /> essential information.<br /> - Grade Elements Table - a complete table of all valid grade elements<br /> with lots of sample hands and explanatory comments.<br /> - Link to the World Unified Mahjong Terminology Table.<br /> <br /> IMJ Learning Centre is located at<br /> http://www.imahjong.com/mruonline11.html<br /> <br /> --------------<br /> Cofa Tsui<br /> www.iMahjong.com<br /> <br /> Reply »<br /> ==============================END OF MESSAGE=====<br /> <br /> <br /> <b>2&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;From: d...@my-deja.com - view profile<br /> Date: Mon, Jul 31 2006 8:15 am</b><br /> Email: d...@my-deja.com<br /> Groups: rec.games.mahjong<br /> Not yet ratedRating:<br /> show options<br /> Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author<br /> <br /> Cofa Tsui wrote:<br /> &gt; QUESTION: If Player A draws a North and wins (he has been calling for<br /> &gt; North), he now has a winning hand containing both Pure Honours and Big<br /> &gt; Three Dragons. Who shall be bound to pay (i.e., "bao")? Player B or<br /> &gt; Player C, or should it be both? Why? (Answers to "why" may have very<br /> &gt; little to do with any rule set. Just want to learn more opinions of<br /> &gt; others.)<br /> <br /> Well, I didn't have the time to visit the IMJ site to look for the<br /> answer. But I would think that no one has to "bao". When Player C<br /> discarded the Green Dragon and Player A did not win from it<br /> immediately, my understanding is that Player C is not under obligation<br /> to "bao" -- the "bao" is applied ONLY if Player A won from the third<br /> dragon immediately, if he merely pung the third dragon, the discarder<br /> is off the hook. In the same manner, when Player B discarded the tile<br /> and Player A did not win from it immediately, he too is off the hook.<br /> In this case, it is a self-drawn limit hand and everyone pays Player A.<br /> <br /> Reply » Rate this post: Text for clearing space<br /> ==============================END OF MESSAGE=====<br /> <br /> <br /> <b>3&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;From: Cofa Tsui - view profile<br /> Date: Mon, Jul 31 2006 9:58 am</b><br /> Email: "Cofa Tsui" &lt;I...@cofatsuiTAKETHISOFF.com&gt;<br /> Groups: rec.games.mahjong<br /> Not yet ratedRating:<br /> show options<br /> Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author<br /> <br /> &lt;d...@my-deja.com&gt; wrote in message<br /> <br /> news:1154358919.071959.260440@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...<br /> <br /> - Hide quoted text -<br /> - Show quoted text -<br /> <br /> &gt; Cofa Tsui wrote:<br /> &gt;&gt; QUESTION: If Player A draws a North and wins (he has been calling for<br /> &gt;&gt; North), he now has a winning hand containing both Pure Honours and Big<br /> &gt;&gt; Three Dragons. Who shall be bound to pay (i.e., "bao")? Player B or<br /> &gt;&gt; Player C, or should it be both? Why? (Answers to "why" may have very<br /> &gt;&gt; little to do with any rule set. Just want to learn more opinions of<br /> &gt;&gt; others.)<br /> <br /> &gt; Well, I didn't have the time to visit the IMJ site to look for the<br /> &gt; answer. But I would think that no one has to "bao". When Player C<br /> &gt; discarded the Green Dragon and Player A did not win from it<br /> &gt; immediately, my understanding is that Player C is not under obligation<br /> &gt; to "bao" -- the "bao" is applied ONLY if Player A won from the third<br /> &gt; dragon immediately, if he merely pung the third dragon, the discarder<br /> &gt; is off the hook. In the same manner, when Player B discarded the tile<br /> &gt; and Player A did not win from it immediately, he too is off the hook.<br /> &gt; In this case, it is a self-drawn limit hand and everyone pays Player A.<br /> <br /> Well, it depends on what "prerequisites" have been agreed upon (I guess this<br /> is a must step if no written rules preside) in the event of games. There are<br /> two types of "bao" that I know of:<br /> <br /> (1) Bao immediately when a cause takes place - That is, if win is claimed<br /> upon a discard, the discarder shall bao. Examples are "Bao new pais while<br /> last 7 pais are left on the wall", and "Bao Honours while last 5 pais are<br /> left on the wall" (I might have mixed up the 7 and 5 pais as these rules<br /> have not been used for a long time). If you discard a new pai (or an Honour)<br /> during the prescribed period and no body claims to win upon the discard, you<br /> are off the hook, and the discarded pai becomes "dead".<br /> <br /> (2) Bao through to the end of the game - If a cause of the bao happens, the<br /> player who committed the case is liable to bao through to the end of the<br /> game, as the discarded pai *has been claimed to promote the future winning<br /> hand*. This is the situation where the topic question is related. The alerts<br /> in question are to warn other players not to provide the third Dragon or the<br /> fourth Honour to the player posing the alert(s). When a player does help him<br /> to achieve the 3rd set (of Dragon) or the fourth set (of Honour), he (the<br /> helping player) is required to take the consequence, which is that he is<br /> required to bao when the player posing the alert(s) is to win by selfdraw,<br /> and the winning hand is the same as related in the alert(s). The penalty of<br /> the bao is to pay three times the selfmake amount. This arrangement is fair<br /> to other players as the winning hand, if in line with the alert and if done<br /> by selfdraw, normally carries a very heavy amount of value.<br /> <br /> Both arrangements of (1) and (2) are the tradition of the HKOS, in case you<br /> are not aware of ^_^<br /> <br /> OK, now if (2) is a valid rule in your games, who shall bao?<br /> <br /> --<br /> Cofa Tsui<br /> www.iMahjong.com<br /> <br /> Reply » Rate this post: Text for clearing space<br /> ==============================END OF MESSAGE=====<br /> <br /> <br /> <b>4&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;From: Cofa Tsui - view profile<br /> Date: Wed, Aug 2 2006 9:34 pm</b><br /> Email: "Cofa Tsui" &lt;I...@cofatsuiTAKETHISOFF.com&gt;<br /> Groups: rec.games.mahjong<br /> Not yet ratedRating:<br /> show options<br /> Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author<br /> <br /> "Cofa Tsui" &lt;I...@cofatsuiTAKETHISOFF.com&gt; wrote in message<br /> <br /> news:kFqzg.280685$iF6.241998@pd7tw2no...<br /> <br /> &gt; &lt;d...@my-deja.com&gt; wrote in message<br /> &gt; news:1154358919.071959.260440@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...<br /> <br /> &gt;&gt; Cofa Tsui wrote:<br /> &gt;&gt;&gt; QUESTION: If Player A draws a North and wins (he has been calling for<br /> &gt;&gt;&gt; North), he now has a winning hand containing both Pure Honours and Big<br /> &gt;&gt;&gt; Three Dragons. Who shall be bound to pay (i.e., "bao")? Player B or<br /> &gt;&gt;&gt; Player C, or should it be both? Why? (Answers to "why" may have very<br /> &gt;&gt;&gt; little to do with any rule set. Just want to learn more opinions of<br /> &gt;&gt;&gt; others.)<br /> <br /> ANSWER:<br /> <br /> Short form: Only Player B shall bao (he who has discarded a pai to help<br /> Player A to set up the fourth set of Honours, shall pay for all other<br /> players when Player A wins by selfdraw and the winning hand comprises of the<br /> element Pure Honours).<br /> <br /> Detailed form: Prior to Player A winning the hand, both Player C (who has<br /> discarded to help A to set up the third set of Dragons) and Player B (who<br /> has discarded to help A to set up the fourth set of Honours) are liable to<br /> the penalties associated to the alerts that are in effect.<br /> <br /> If Player A wins by drawing a Serial, the hand is an All Pungs hand with the<br /> element of Big Three Dragons. The Pure Honours element is not formed,<br /> therefore the Pure Honours alert is collapsed and only Player C shall pay<br /> the penalty - pays the full selfmake value to A for himself and for other<br /> two players. However, this is not the scenario of the question topic.<br /> <br /> If Player A wins by drawing an Honour (as in this question topic), the hand<br /> is an All Pungs hand with the element of Pure Honours. Hence Player B shall<br /> pay the penalty according to the rule of that specific alert (Pure Honours<br /> Alert).<br /> <br /> You may ask: "Player C has helped A to set up the third set of Dragons,<br /> which can also be referred to as the third set of Honours, why C is free<br /> from the penalty?" The reasoning behind this is that C's help to A in making<br /> the third set of Dragons, is also considered to be helping A to make the<br /> third set of Honours, and there is never any penalty to pay if a player<br /> merely helps others to set up the third set of Honours, other than the third<br /> set of Dragons.<br /> <br /> There are also other reasons to support the above ruling:<br /> (a) The winning player is claiming values of both Pure Honours and Big Three<br /> Dragons, it is unfair for the player who is bound under the Big Three<br /> Dragons alert to pay the much higher penalty of the Pure Honours alert.<br /> (b) The fourth set of Honours is caught later than the third set of Dragons,<br /> it is fair for the player who is the last to risk the "alert" to take the<br /> "final" consequence.<br /> <br /> The above ruling is found in rule article 33 of the International Mahjong<br /> Rules (http://www.imahjong.com/mruonline1101imjrulesc_simplified.html).<br /> <br /> --<br /> Cofa Tsui<br /> www.iMahjong.com<br /> <br /> Reply » Rate this post: Text for clearing space<br /> ==============================END OF MESSAGE=====<br /> <br /> <br /> <b>5&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;From: d...@my-deja.com - view profile<br /> Date: Thurs, Aug 3 2006 8:34 am</b><br /> Email: d...@my-deja.com<br /> Groups: rec.games.mahjong<br /> Not yet ratedRating:<br /> show options<br /> Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author<br /> <br /> - Hide quoted text -<br /> - Show quoted text -<br /> <br /> Cofa Tsui wrote:<br /> &gt; "Cofa Tsui" &lt;I...@cofatsuiTAKETHISOFF.com&gt; wrote in message<br /> &gt; news:kFqzg.280685$iF6.241998@pd7tw2no...<br /> &gt; &gt;&gt; Cofa Tsui wrote:<br /> &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; QUESTION: If Player A draws a North and wins (he has been calling for<br /> &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; North), he now has a winning hand containing both Pure Honours and Big<br /> &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Three Dragons. Who shall be bound to pay (i.e., "bao")? Player B or<br /> &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Player C, or should it be both? Why? (Answers to "why" may have very<br /> &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; little to do with any rule set. Just want to learn more opinions of<br /> &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; others.)<br /> <br /> &gt; ANSWER:<br /> <br /> &gt; Short form: Only Player B shall bao (he who has discarded a pai to help<br /> &gt; Player A to set up the fourth set of Honours, shall pay for all other<br /> &gt; players when Player A wins by selfdraw and the winning hand comprises of the<br /> &gt; element Pure Honours).<br /> <br /> I disagree with the ruling on Player C, I'll have to think about your<br /> ruling on Player B.<br /> <br /> Here is an alternative situation if we put aside the situation with<br /> Player B; what if Player A won from a discard (let's say from Player D)<br /> after he formed the Big Three Scholars from Player C? Is Player C<br /> still responsible for the "bao"? Or is Player D responsible for a<br /> "bao"? Or is Player D merely responsible for being the discarder of<br /> the winning tile and everyone pay their share? I don't know if your<br /> ruling is that the player who helped the winner to form the Big Three<br /> Scholars is responsible for "bao self-draw" or if that player is<br /> responsible for "bao" regardless of how the winner won. I think we<br /> both agree that if Player A had won from the Green Dragon immediately<br /> when it was discarded by Player C they Player C is responsible for the<br /> "bao", We have different interpretations on "bao" when the win is not<br /> immediate.<br /> <br /> As for Player B, your ruling is similar to the "12 tile showing bao<br /> self-draw" rule. I have not encountered this yet, so I don't know how<br /> to interpret it. But again, my general thinking is that if the win is<br /> not immediate, there is no "bao" in effect.<br /> <br /> Reply » Rate this post: Text for clearing space<br /> ==============================END OF MESSAGE=====<br /> <br /> <br /> <b>6&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;From: Cofa Tsui - view profile<br /> Date: Thurs, Aug 3 2006 10:27 am</b><br /> Email: "Cofa Tsui" &lt;I...@cofatsuiTAKETHISOFF.com&gt;<br /> Groups: rec.games.mahjong<br /> Not yet ratedRating:<br /> show options<br /> Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author<br /> <br /> &lt;d...@my-deja.com&gt; wrote in message<br /> <br /> news:1154619298.460721.47730@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...<br /> <br /> - Hide quoted text -<br /> - Show quoted text -<br /> <br /> &gt; Cofa Tsui wrote:<br /> &gt;&gt; "Cofa Tsui" &lt;I...@cofatsuiTAKETHISOFF.com&gt; wrote in message<br /> &gt;&gt; news:kFqzg.280685$iF6.241998@pd7tw2no...<br /> &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; Cofa Tsui wrote:<br /> &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; QUESTION: If Player A draws a North and wins (he has been calling for<br /> &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; North), he now has a winning hand containing both Pure Honours and<br /> &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Big<br /> &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Three Dragons. Who shall be bound to pay (i.e., "bao")? Player B or<br /> &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Player C, or should it be both? Why? (Answers to "why" may have very<br /> &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; little to do with any rule set. Just want to learn more opinions of<br /> &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; others.)<br /> <br /> &gt;&gt; ANSWER:<br /> <br /> &gt;&gt; Short form: Only Player B shall bao (he who has discarded a pai to help<br /> &gt;&gt; Player A to set up the fourth set of Honours, shall pay for all other<br /> &gt;&gt; players when Player A wins by selfdraw and the winning hand comprises of<br /> &gt;&gt; the<br /> &gt;&gt; element Pure Honours).<br /> <br /> &gt; I disagree with the ruling on Player C, I'll have to think about your<br /> &gt; ruling on Player B.<br /> <br /> OK, I'll display various situations in details (a long post)...<br /> <br /> &gt; Here is an alternative situation if we put aside the situation with<br /> &gt; Player B; what if Player A won from a discard (let's say from Player D)<br /> &gt; after he formed the Big Three Scholars from Player C? Is Player C<br /> &gt; still responsible for the "bao"?<br /> <br /> Before C discards, A already has two sets of Dragons displayed. At this<br /> point, the "Big Three Dragons Alert" is in effect. The alert carries the<br /> penalty like this:<br /> (a) If anyone discards the third Dragon and player A wins on that discard,<br /> AND if his winning hand contains the element of Big Three Dragons, the<br /> discarder shall bao (he'll pay cheaper in this scenario as he pays his own<br /> share (two times) plus shares of the other two players two x one times).<br /> This is where "immediate bao" takes place. Note: Bao penalty will not apply<br /> if the hand contains Little Three Dragons only.<br /> (b) If anyone discards the thrid Dragon and player A pungs/kongs it (not an<br /> immediate win), the discarder will pay the penalty if at a later time player<br /> A wins on drawing by himself, AND if his winning hand contains the element<br /> of Big Three Dragons. This is where "bao through to the end" takes place. In<br /> this "bao" situation, the one who has discarded the third Dragon pays the<br /> selfmake scores (three X two times per player).<br /> (c) Note the emphasis "AND ...contains ... Big Three Dragons". The penalty<br /> applies only if the element (in this case, the Big Three Dragons) related to<br /> the alert is realized.<br /> <br /> AFTER the three sets of Dragons are displayed (in which, C helps A to set up<br /> the third set) and A does not win immediately, the following could happen:<br /> (d) C is responsible for the penalty through to the end of the game - as per<br /> (b) above. Also see (f) below.<br /> (e) If player D discards, and player A wins on the discard - This is where<br /> D_Lau's question is. Then,<br /> (1) Before we go further, we must first understand that at this point,<br /> another alert has just begun to be in effect - the "Pure Honours Alert"<br /> (also known as the "Nine-Piece Bao Alert"). This is under the "immediate<br /> bao" category. Also in this bao alert, the target winning hand is to contain<br /> the element of Pure Honours. With this bao rule, anyone who discards a pai<br /> to allow the player giving the alert to win, PROVIDED the winning hand<br /> contains the element related to the alert (in this case, the Pure Honours),<br /> shall bao.<br /> (2) With the understanding of (1) above, if player D discards an Honour,<br /> player A wins AND if the hand contains the element of Pure Honours, player D<br /> shall bao (paying 1 X two times plus 2 X one times).<br /> (3) If player A's winning hand contains anything but the Pure Honours, the<br /> bao penalty will not apply.<br /> (4) The penalty for Big Three Dragons will not apply either, because the win<br /> is not by selfdraw. Also see (b) above.<br /> <br /> Or is Player D responsible for a<br /> <br /> &gt; "bao"? Or is Player D merely responsible for being the discarder of<br /> &gt; the winning tile and everyone pay their share?<br /> <br /> (f) For the first question, see (e) above.<br /> (g) For the second question, it depends on whether the play is based on the<br /> the traditional "everyone pays" rule, or the "chucker pays for all" rule.<br /> <br /> I don't know if your<br /> <br /> &gt; ruling is that the player who helped the winner to form the Big Three<br /> &gt; Scholars is responsible for "bao self-draw" or if that player is<br /> &gt; responsible for "bao" regardless of how the winner won.<br /> <br /> (h) The short answer to your question is: The player is "bao selfdraw"; the<br /> bao is effective through to the end of the game; and, the bao penalty<br /> applies only if the winning hand contains Big Three Dragons. However,<br /> exception may happen - This is why mahjong could be so complicated, or<br /> should I say WONDERFUL? One exception is where two players are responsible<br /> for two different penalties, to one winning player at the very same time -<br /> see (j) below.<br /> (i) The traditional HKOS rule is that if the hand containing Big Three<br /> Dragons is not won immediately, the penalty is "bao selfdraw" and is valid<br /> through to the end of the game (very few authors have the details in their<br /> books, though). In IMJ Rules, art. 33.2 has the detailed rule in writing.<br /> Note that IMJ applies the "chucker pays for all" system, anyone discarding a<br /> winning pai will pay, regardless any situation.<br /> (j) There is a situation where BOTH the "Big Three Dragons" bao AND the<br /> "Pure Honours" bao ARE in place at the same time, as raised in the original<br /> question of this topic. In my original question, player C is responsible for<br /> the Big Three Dragons penalty (bao selfdraw through to the end); player B is<br /> responsible for the Pure Honours penalty (bao selfdraw through to the end);<br /> and player A eventually wins on selfdraw, AND the winning hand contains both<br /> Big Three Dragons and Pure Honours. To avoid the dispute as to who (B or C)<br /> is responsible for paying A on his selfdraw win, there must be some rules to<br /> govern this situation. I have not read of any reference to this effect in<br /> any books or rule sets, except the IMJ Rules. Art. 33 of the IMJ Rules<br /> states that in this type of situations, only the Pure Honours bao penalty<br /> will apply.<br /> <br /> I think we<br /> <br /> &gt; both agree that if Player A had won from the Green Dragon immediately<br /> &gt; when it was discarded by Player C they Player C is responsible for the<br /> &gt; "bao",<br /> <br /> I agree this.<br /> <br /> We have different interpretations on "bao" when the win is not<br /> <br /> &gt; immediate.<br /> <br /> It is obvious. However, I think the difference is not different at all. What<br /> you know is quite the same as what I told; the difference, if any, seems to<br /> be in the part that you have not said. What I have provided is the *whole<br /> picture* about all "bao situations". And as I mentioned in my previous<br /> message, these are all traditional in HKOS (Some rules in IMJ Rules are<br /> modern, which I have also mentioned.). I believe other HKOS experts would<br /> agree to what I've provided.<br /> <br /> &gt; As for Player B, your ruling is similar to the "12 tile showing bao<br /> &gt; self-draw" rule. I have not encountered this yet, so I don't know how<br /> &gt; to interpret it.<br /> <br /> You are right about this. The "Twelve-Piece Bao Selfdraw" rules apply to<br /> hands containing "Pure Same" (hand containing one Serial suit only) and<br /> "Pure Honours" (hand containing Honours only), and the bao penalty is valid<br /> through to the end of the game, but the penalty applies only when certain<br /> conditions are met.<br /> <br /> But again, my general thinking is that if the win is<br /> <br /> &gt; not immediate, there is no "bao" in effect.<br /> <br /> So how about now, after seeing the "whole picture" above?<br /> <br /> --<br /> Cofa Tsui<br /> www.iMahjong.com<br /> <br /> Reply » Rate this post: Text for clearing space<br /> ==============================END OF MESSAGE=====<br /> <br /> <br /> <b>7&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;From: John (Zi Rong) Low - view profile<br /> Date: Thurs, Aug 3 2006 11:06 pm</b><br /> Email: "John (Zi Rong) Low" &lt;entiqm...@gmail.com&gt;<br /> Groups: rec.games.mahjong<br /> Not yet ratedRating:<br /> show options<br /> Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author<br /> <br /> Sorry for repeating this (too lazy to read all of it), but it is "Bao<br /> 1" for Mandarin. In Japanese it is "Pao" and applies to<br /> Daisangen (Big Three Elements)<br /> Dai Suu Shi (Big Four Joys) and sometimes<br /> Suu Kantsu (Four Quads)<br /> <br /> If Player 1 made the most recent meld (Pon/Kan) off Player 2, and does<br /> "Tsumo", then Player two has to pay the entire Yakuman payment.<br /> If Player 1 made the most recent meld off Player 2, but "Ron"s off<br /> Player 3 or 4, then Player 2 pays 50% and the other player pays 50%.<br /> <br /> Reply » Rate this post: Text for clearing space<br /> ==============================END OF MESSAGE=====<br /> <br /> <br /> <b>8&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;From: Cofa Tsui - view profile<br /> Date: Sat, Aug 5 2006 10:03 pm</b><br /> Email: "Cofa Tsui" &lt;I...@cofatsuiTAKETHISOFF.com&gt;<br /> Groups: rec.games.mahjong<br /> Not yet ratedRating:<br /> show options<br /> Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author<br /> <br /> "John (Zi Rong) Low" &lt;entiqm...@gmail.com&gt; wrote in message<br /> news:1154671581.828930.46710@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...<br /> <br /> &gt; Sorry for repeating this (too lazy to read all of it), but it is "Bao<br /> &gt; 1" for Mandarin. In Japanese it is "Pao" and applies to<br /> &gt; Daisangen (Big Three Elements)<br /> &gt; Dai Suu Shi (Big Four Joys) and sometimes<br /> &gt; Suu Kantsu (Four Quads)<br /> <br /> &gt; If Player 1 made the most recent meld (Pon/Kan) off Player 2, and does<br /> &gt; "Tsumo", then Player two has to pay the entire Yakuman payment.<br /> &gt; If Player 1 made the most recent meld off Player 2, but "Ron"s off<br /> &gt; Player 3 or 4, then Player 2 pays 50% and the other player pays 50%.<br /> <br /> Hi John,<br /> <br /> I read of the 50/50 sharing arrangement in some literature but am sure it is<br /> not in the HKOS.<br /> <br /> By the way, what is "Suu Kantsu (Four Quads)"? Does it mean "Four Kongs"?<br /> What or how is the "bao" related to it? I mean, how the bao works in this<br /> situation?<br /> --<br /> Cofa Tsui<br /> www.iMahjong.com<br /> <br /> Reply » Rate this post: Text for clearing space<br /> ==============================END OF MESSAGE=====<br /> <br /> <br /> <b>9&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;From: John (Zi Rong) Low - view profile<br /> Date: Sat, Aug 5 2006 11:56 pm</b><br /> Email: "John (Zi Rong) Low" &lt;entiqm...@gmail.com&gt;<br /> Groups: rec.games.mahjong<br /> Not yet ratedRating:<br /> show options<br /> Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author<br /> <br /> &gt;I read of the 50/50 sharing arrangement in some literature but am sure it is<br /> &gt;not in the HKOS.<br /> <br /> &gt;By the way, what is "Suu Kantsu (Four Quads)"? Does it mean "Four Kongs"?<br /> &gt;What or how is the "bao" related to it? I mean, how the bao works in this<br /> &gt;situation?<br /> <br /> I was talking in referral to Modern Japanese mahjong. The "Bao/Pao"<br /> penalty in Japanese mahjong is in relation to the most recent open meld<br /> of the Yakuman winner's hand.<br /> <br /> E.g. Player A makes a "Pon" off Player B's Red<br /> Player A later "Pon"s off Player C's Green<br /> <br /> Player A finally does "Tsumo" (self pick) with Dai Sangen (Big Three<br /> Elements). Player C's Green was his most recent meld, so Player C pays<br /> for all.<br /> <br /> Reply » Rate this post: Text for clearing space<br /> ==============================END OF MESSAGE=====<br /> <br /> <br /> <b>10&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;From: J. R. Fitch - view profile<br /> Date: Sun, Aug 6 2006 5:32 am</b><br /> Email: "J. R. Fitch" &lt;jrfi...@ninedragons.com&gt;<br /> Groups: rec.games.mahjong<br /> Not yet ratedRating:<br /> show options<br /> Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author<br /> <br /> John (Zi Rong) Low" &lt;entiqm...@gmail.com&gt; wrote in message"<br /> <br /> &gt; ..and sometimes Suu Kantsu (Four Quads)<br /> <br /> I am curious how a penalty could be applied to All Kong.<br /> <br /> Sure, we can see that a player is showing 3 Kongs already, but how are<br /> we to know which tile is dangerous/foolish to discard? By their absence<br /> among the melds and discards?<br /> <br /> Must the winner go out on his replacement tile, or can he win later?<br /> <br /> --<br /> J. R. Fitch<br /> Nine Dragons Software<br /> San Francisco, CA USA<br /> http://www.ninedragons.com<br /> <br /> Reply » Rate this post:<br /> ==============================END OF MESSAGE=====<br /> <br /> <br /> <b>11&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;From: John (Zi Rong) Low - view profile<br /> Date: Sun, Aug 6 2006 6:31 am</b><br /> Email: "John (Zi Rong) Low" &lt;entiqm...@gmail.com&gt;<br /> Groups: rec.games.mahjong<br /> Not yet ratedRating:<br /> show options<br /> Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author<br /> <br /> - Hide quoted text -<br /> - Show quoted text -<br /> <br /> J. R. Fitch wrote:<br /> &gt; John (Zi Rong) Low" &lt;entiqm...@gmail.com&gt; wrote in message"<br /> &gt; &gt; ..and sometimes Suu Kantsu (Four Quads)<br /> <br /> &gt; I am curious how a penalty could be applied to All Kong.<br /> <br /> &gt; Sure, we can see that a player is showing 3 Kongs already, but how are<br /> &gt; we to know which tile is dangerous/foolish to discard? By their absence<br /> &gt; among the melds and discards?<br /> <br /> &gt; Must the winner go out on his replacement tile, or can he win later?<br /> <br /> &gt; --<br /> &gt; J. R. Fitch<br /> &gt; Nine Dragons Software<br /> &gt; San Francisco, CA USA<br /> &gt; http://www.ninedragons.com<br /> <br /> Oops, sorry I made a mistake.<br /> <br /> When Player A makes the most recent meld which definitely confirms a<br /> Yakuman hand, and wins later, then a "Bao/Pao" penalty will occur.<br /> <br /> For Suu Kantsu (4 Quads), there has to be 3 quads visible, and then the<br /> 4th Quad be melded via somebody's discard (Player B). Then if Player A<br /> self picks, then Player B pays the entire penalty. If Player A "Ron"s<br /> player C (for a Pair), then B and C pay 50% each.<br /> <br /> Reply » Rate this post: Text for clearing space<br /> ==============================END OF MESSAGE=====<br /> <br /> <br /> <b>12&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;From: Cofa Tsui - view profile<br /> Date: Sun, Aug 6 2006 10:06 am</b><br /> Email: "Cofa Tsui" &lt;I...@cofatsuiTAKETHISOFF.com&gt;<br /> Groups: rec.games.mahjong<br /> Not yet ratedRating:<br /> show options<br /> Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author<br /> <br /> "John (Zi Rong) Low" &lt;entiqm...@gmail.com&gt; wrote in message<br /> news:1154871096.432644.318900@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...<br /> <br /> - Hide quoted text -<br /> - Show quoted text -<br /> <br /> &gt; J. R. Fitch wrote:<br /> &gt;&gt; John (Zi Rong) Low" &lt;entiqm...@gmail.com&gt; wrote in message"<br /> &gt;&gt; &gt; ..and sometimes Suu Kantsu (Four Quads)<br /> <br /> &gt;&gt; I am curious how a penalty could be applied to All Kong.<br /> <br /> &gt;&gt; Sure, we can see that a player is showing 3 Kongs already, but how are<br /> &gt;&gt; we to know which tile is dangerous/foolish to discard? By their absence<br /> &gt;&gt; among the melds and discards?<br /> <br /> &gt;&gt; Must the winner go out on his replacement tile, or can he win later?<br /> <br /> &gt;&gt; --<br /> &gt;&gt; J. R. Fitch<br /> &gt;&gt; Nine Dragons Software<br /> &gt;&gt; San Francisco, CA USA<br /> &gt;&gt; http://www.ninedragons.com<br /> <br /> That's what I have asked about in my previous post.<br /> <br /> &gt; Oops, sorry I made a mistake.<br /> <br /> &gt; When Player A makes the most recent meld which definitely confirms a<br /> &gt; Yakuman hand, and wins later, then a "Bao/Pao" penalty will occur.<br /> <br /> &gt; For Suu Kantsu (4 Quads), there has to be 3 quads visible, and then the<br /> &gt; 4th Quad be melded via somebody's discard (Player B). Then if Player A<br /> &gt; self picks, then Player B pays the entire penalty. If Player A "Ron"s<br /> &gt; player C (for a Pair), then B and C pay 50% each.<br /> <br /> Does this bao rule cover kongs of all pais (Dragons, Winds, Serials and the<br /> mix of these)? (Sorry I am not sure if this is part of the definition of<br /> "Yakuman hand" that I am not aware of - re: "which definitely confirms a<br /> Yakuman hand".)<br /> <br /> If the answer is "yes", it seems the penalty comes purely by luck (or "bad<br /> luck"), right? Wait! Or else one must ensure the pai he is going to discard<br /> is among the disclosed pais (on the floor and on the display lines of all<br /> players). So, is the purpose of this bao rule to discourage players from<br /> discarding any "raw or fresh" pais?<br /> <br /> --<br /> Cofa Tsui<br /> www.iMahjong.com<br /> <br /> Reply » Rate this post: Text for clearing space<br /> ==============================END OF MESSAGE=====<br /> <br /> <br /> <b>13&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;From: J. R. Fitch - view profile<br /> Date: Sun, Aug 6 2006 9:28 pm</b><br /> Email: "J. R. Fitch" &lt;jrfi...@ninedragons.com&gt;<br /> Groups: rec.games.mahjong<br /> Not yet ratedRating:<br /> show options<br /> Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author<br /> <br /> Cofa Tsui wrote:<br /> &gt; .. is the purpose of this bao rule to discourage players from<br /> &gt; discarding any "raw or fresh" pais?<br /> <br /> The answer could only be Yes. How else could one determine the risk? But<br /> it is not fair, considering that tiles might still be in the Wall.<br /> <br /> So, to me this bao is not logical.<br /> <br /> In HKOS, there is a bao for throwing a "fresh" tile when there are 5 or<br /> fewer tiles remaining in the Wall. This bao makes much more sense.<br /> <br /> --<br /> J. R. Fitch<br /> Nine Dragons Software<br /> San Francisco, CA USA<br /> http://www.ninedragons.com<br /> <br /> Reply » Rate this post: Text for clearing space<br /> ==============================END OF MESSAGE=====<br /> <br /> <br /> <b>14&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;From: John (Zi Rong) Low - view profile<br /> Date: Sun, Aug 6 2006 11:34 pm</b><br /> Email: "John (Zi Rong) Low" &lt;entiqm...@gmail.com&gt;<br /> Groups: rec.games.mahjong<br /> Not yet ratedRating:<br /> show options<br /> Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author<br /> <br /> According to the Japan Pro Mahjong League rules at<br /> http://www.ma-jan.or.jp/rule.htm , that is their definition of<br /> "Bao/Pao" penalty.<br /> <br /> I assume that if Player A already has 2 revealed "Pon"s of Red and<br /> Green, everybody else would've suspected that he's aiming for Dai<br /> Sangen (Big Three Elements) and avoid discarding the White, if they<br /> pick it up later.<br /> <br /> Similarly, if Player A already has 3 declared "Kan"s (Quads), you<br /> should suspect that he might be aiming for Suu Kantsu (4 Quads), and<br /> avoid feeding the 4th Quad by discarding tiles which have already been<br /> discarded. That way, the absolute most Player A can do is "Pon" of it,<br /> but not "Kan" because the 4th of that tile has already been discarded.<br /> <br /> The "Bao/Pao" rule for Suu Kantsu (Four Quads) applies to any type of<br /> "Kan"s, Honours and Suit tiles. Everyone must try not to let their tile<br /> be used to make Player A's 4th Quad, otherwise they will suffer this<br /> penalty if he wins.<br /> <br /> Reply » Rate this post: Text for clearing space<br /> ==============================END OF MESSAGE=====<br /> <br /> <br /> <b>15&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;From: John (Zi Rong) Low - view profile<br /> Date: Sun, Aug 6 2006 11:41 pm</b><br /> Email: "John (Zi Rong) Low" &lt;entiqm...@gmail.com&gt;<br /> Groups: rec.games.mahjong<br /> Not yet ratedRating:<br /> show options<br /> Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author<br /> <br /> &gt; .. is the purpose of this bao rule to discourage players from<br /> &gt; discarding any "raw or fresh" pais?<br /> <br /> &gt;The answer could only be Yes. How else could one determine the risk? But<br /> &gt;it is not fair, considering that tiles might still be in the Wall.<br /> <br /> &gt;So, to me this bao is not logical.<br /> <br /> &gt;In HKOS, there is a bao for throwing a "fresh" tile when there are 5 or<br /> &gt;fewer tiles remaining in the Wall. This bao makes much more sense.<br /> <br /> It says<br /> 0"'Y NCQ00 N.z^˜îvn0 NCQLr’0Ý0ó0U0[0_0Bf0<br /> 0'YÛVœU00ÛV.z^˜îvn0¨˜Lr’0Ý0ó0U0[0_0Bf0<br /> 0ÛVÓiP[00 NÓiP[Œ[b€k0uLrÿèl38 ÿ’0f«0ó0U0[0_0Bf."<br /> <br /> Yes, it discourages players from discarding "Shonpai" (Fresh tiles).<br /> For Dai Sangen (Big Three Elements), the person who enables Player A to<br /> meld the 3rd Dragon "Pon/Kan" off his discard will suffer. Suffering<br /> also occurs for letting Player A meld the 4th Wind "Pon/Kan" and the<br /> 4th "Kan" via discard.<br /> <br /> There are no "Hot tiles" or that 5 fewer tiles remaining in wall, it<br /> applies any time in the hand, depending on Player A's hand development.<br /> <br /> Reply » Rate this post: Text for clearing space<br /> ==============================END OF MESSAGE=====<br /> <br /> <br /> <b>16&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;From: Cofa Tsui - view profile<br /> Date: Sun, Aug 6 2006 11:35 pm</b><br /> Email: "Cofa Tsui" &lt;I...@cofatsuiTAKETHISOFF.com&gt;<br /> Groups: rec.games.mahjong<br /> Not yet ratedRating:<br /> show options<br /> Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author<br /> <br /> "J. R. Fitch" &lt;jrfi...@ninedragons.com&gt; wrote in message<br /> news:44D6C197.23A2CC40@ninedragons.com...<br /> <br /> &gt; Cofa Tsui wrote:<br /> &gt;&gt; .. is the purpose of this bao rule to discourage players from<br /> &gt;&gt; discarding any "raw or fresh" pais?<br /> <br /> &gt; The answer could only be Yes. How else could one determine the risk? But<br /> &gt; it is not fair, considering that tiles might still be in the Wall.<br /> <br /> &gt; So, to me this bao is not logical.<br /> <br /> I don't think it's logical either. But I am still curious to learn if there<br /> is anything related to the "Yakuman hand" would suggest otherwise.<br /> <br /> --<br /> Cofa Tsui<br /> www.iMahjong.com<br /> <br /> Reply » Rate this post: Text for clearing space<br /> ==============================END OF MESSAGE=====<br /> <br /> <br /> <b>17&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;From: d...@my-deja.com - view profile<br /> Date: Mon, Aug 7 2006 8:53 am</b><br /> Email: d...@my-deja.com<br /> Groups: rec.games.mahjong<br /> Not yet ratedRating:<br /> show options<br /> Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author<br /> <br /> Cofa Tsui wrote:<br /> &gt; Before C discards, A already has two sets of Dragons displayed. At this<br /> &gt; point, the "Big Three Dragons Alert" is in effect. The alert carries the<br /> &gt; penalty like this:<br /> &gt; (b) If anyone discards the thrid Dragon and player A pungs/kongs it (not an<br /> &gt; immediate win), the discarder will pay the penalty if at a later time player<br /> &gt; A wins on drawing by himself, AND if his winning hand contains the element<br /> &gt; of Big Three Dragons. This is where "bao through to the end" takes place. In<br /> &gt; this "bao" situation, the one who has discarded the third Dragon pays the<br /> &gt; selfmake scores (three X two times per player).<br /> <br /> Hmmm... I am no lawyer (and I don't play one on TV either), but this<br /> sounds like a lot of legal talk. So if player "A already has two sets<br /> of Dragons displayed" and "A pungs/kongs (the third Dragon)" and "A<br /> wins on drawing by himself", then can you give an example situation<br /> where the winning hand DOES NOT "contain the element of Big Three<br /> Dragons"? I cannot think of a case where all this wording is<br /> necessary.<br /> <br /> So your house rule is that the player who supplied the third Dragon<br /> pung (not an immediate win) is responsible for "bao selfdraw". This is<br /> a much simpler rule than all that legal if (a), (b), (c)... stuff.<br /> <br /> Reply » Rate this post: Text for clearing space<br /> ==============================END OF MESSAGE=====<br /> <br /> <br /> <b>18&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;From: Cofa Tsui - view profile<br /> Date: Mon, Aug 7 2006 10:30 am</b><br /> Email: "Cofa Tsui" &lt;I...@cofatsuiTAKETHISOFF.com&gt;<br /> Groups: rec.games.mahjong<br /> Not yet ratedRating:<br /> show options<br /> Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author<br /> <br /> &lt;d...@my-deja.com&gt; wrote in message<br /> <br /> news:1154966002.279960.14980@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...<br /> <br /> - Hide quoted text -<br /> - Show quoted text -<br /> <br /> &gt; Cofa Tsui wrote:<br /> &gt;&gt; Before C discards, A already has two sets of Dragons displayed. At this<br /> &gt;&gt; point, the "Big Three Dragons Alert" is in effect. The alert carries the<br /> &gt;&gt; penalty like this:<br /> &gt;&gt; (b) If anyone discards the thrid Dragon and player A pungs/kongs it (not<br /> &gt;&gt; an<br /> &gt;&gt; immediate win), the discarder will pay the penalty if at a later time<br /> &gt;&gt; player<br /> &gt;&gt; A wins on drawing by himself, AND if his winning hand contains the<br /> &gt;&gt; element<br /> &gt;&gt; of Big Three Dragons. This is where "bao through to the end" takes place.<br /> &gt;&gt; In<br /> &gt;&gt; this "bao" situation, the one who has discarded the third Dragon pays the<br /> &gt;&gt; selfmake scores (three X two times per player).<br /> <br /> &gt; Hmmm... I am no lawyer (and I don't play one on TV either), but this<br /> &gt; sounds like a lot of legal talk. So if player "A already has two sets<br /> &gt; of Dragons displayed" and "A pungs/kongs (the third Dragon)" and "A<br /> &gt; wins on drawing by himself", then can you give an example situation<br /> &gt; where the winning hand DOES NOT "contain the element of Big Three<br /> &gt; Dragons"? I cannot think of a case where all this wording is<br /> &gt; necessary.<br /> <br /> NORMALLY there won't be such an example! I noticed the "abandon" wording but<br /> understood it was necessary to be there to demonstrate one of the required<br /> conditions for the bao penalty.<br /> <br /> On the other hand, there could *always* be exceptions in mahjong - again,<br /> that's why it's such a wonderful game!!! See an ABNORMAL example below (it<br /> could happen, right?!):<br /> - Player A punged the third Dragon but was too excited to collect the<br /> discarded Dragon from the floor! In this case he only displayed two Dragons<br /> on his display line and didn't know the mistake! (Wouldn't you ask why other<br /> players didn't or shouldn't tell him about the mistake?) He later on<br /> selfdrew and opened all pais of his concealed hand at once to claim a win<br /> with the Big Three Dragons, but only to know that he had made a false win!<br /> <br /> &gt; So your house rule is that the player who supplied the third Dragon<br /> &gt; pung (not an immediate win) is responsible for "bao selfdraw". This is<br /> &gt; a much simpler rule than all that legal if (a), (b), (c)... stuff.<br /> <br /> If you rely on rules (or house rules, or legal...) by word of mouth, you can<br /> tell them whatever way you prefer, and provide explanations (also by mouth)<br /> whenever and however questions are raised. Those (a), (b)... (especially<br /> (e)) are necessary to show you the *whole picture* in answering, *in<br /> writing*, to your questions - perhaps to other readers who are interested in<br /> the topic as well.<br /> <br /> To avoid any confusions, and again, these are traditional rules in HKOS (or<br /> traditional house rules if you prefer calling it this way). Should any<br /> expert in HKOS ask the question you've asked in the first place? I guess you<br /> are just not appreciated the thorough answers I've provided!<br /> <br /> --<br /> Cofa Tsui<br /> www.iMahjong.com<br /> <br /> Reply » Rate this post: Text for clearing space<br /> ==============================END OF MESSAGE=====<br /> <br /> <br /> <b>19&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;From: d...@my-deja.com - view profile<br /> Date: Mon, Aug 7 2006 11:24 am</b><br /> Email: d...@my-deja.com<br /> Groups: rec.games.mahjong<br /> Not yet ratedRating:<br /> show options<br /> Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author<br /> <br /> Cofa Tsui wrote:<br /> &gt; To avoid any confusions, and again, these are traditional rules in HKOS (or<br /> &gt; traditional house rules if you prefer calling it this way). Should any<br /> &gt; expert in HKOS ask the question you've asked in the first place? I guess you<br /> &gt; are just not appreciated the thorough answers I've provided!<br /> <br /> Don't get me wrong, Cofa. I appreciate all the detail answers you<br /> provided because they explained your answer with all the possibilities.<br /> What I didn't appreciate was the legal wording and all the extra words<br /> (not to mention your unique English terms you use, but that is another<br /> discussion :-) ). I think HKOS rules are usually quite simple in their<br /> nature, and so I was looking for the simple answer as usual -- players<br /> understand there are exceptions and those are the times that make the<br /> game exciting as you say. In my circle, we only honor the "bao" if it<br /> is an immediate win, I don't know how "traditional" this rule is.<br /> <br /> Reply » Rate this post: Text for clearing space<br /> ==============================END OF MESSAGE=====<br /> <br /> <br /> <b>20&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;From: J. R. Fitch - view profile<br /> Date: Mon, Aug 7 2006 4:10 pm</b><br /> Email: "J. R. Fitch" &lt;jrfi...@ninedragons.com&gt;<br /> Groups: rec.games.mahjong<br /> Not yet ratedRating:<br /> show options<br /> Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author<br /> <br /> d...@my-deja.com wrote:<br /> &gt;&gt; In my circle, we only honor the "bao" if it is an immediate win,<br /> &gt;&gt; I don't know how "traditional" this rule is.<br /> <br /> From all that I know about HKOS, both the Nine Pieces bao and its Twelve<br /> Pieces corollary are 100% traditional and essential.<br /> <br /> --<br /> J. R. Fitch<br /> Nine Dragons Software<br /> San Francisco, CA USA<br /> http://www.ninedragons.com<br /> <br /> Reply » Rate this post:<br /> ==============================END OF MESSAGE=====<br /> <br /> <br /> <b>21&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;From: d...@my-deja.com - view profile<br /> Date: Mon, Aug 7 2006 4:55 pm</b><br /> Email: d...@my-deja.com<br /> Groups: rec.games.mahjong<br /> Not yet ratedRating:<br /> show options<br /> Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author<br /> <br /> J. R. Fitch wrote:<br /> &gt; d...@my-deja.com wrote:<br /> &gt; &gt;&gt; In my circle, we only honor the "bao" if it is an immediate win,<br /> &gt; &gt;&gt; I don't know how "traditional" this rule is.<br /> <br /> &gt; From all that I know about HKOS, both the Nine Pieces bao and its Twelve<br /> &gt; Pieces corollary are 100% traditional and essential.<br /> <br /> &gt; --<br /> &gt; J. R. Fitch<br /> &gt; Nine Dragons Software<br /> &gt; San Francisco, CA USA<br /> &gt; http://www.ninedragons.com<br /> <br /> You mean Nine Pieces (discarder "bao" on immediate win) and Twelve<br /> Pieces (discarder "bao" for self-draw win) for "Pure One Suit" right?<br /> That is traditional in HKOS and I am aware of them and we play by these<br /> rules.<br /> <br /> But the difference for Big Three Scholar (in Cofa's interpretation) is<br /> that it is discarder "bao" on self-draw win when only Nine Pieces are<br /> showing, this is not the same as the Twelve Pieces "bao" of Pure One<br /> Suit. We all agree on the "bao" on immediate win case for Big Three<br /> Scholar, it is when the win is not immediate that we have different<br /> interpretations.<br /> <br /> Reply » Rate this post:<br /> ==============================END OF MESSAGE=====<br /> <br /> <br /> <b>22&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;From: J. R. Fitch - view profile<br /> Date: Mon, Aug 7 2006 6:59 pm</b><br /> Email: "J. R. Fitch" &lt;jrfi...@ninedragons.com&gt;<br /> Groups: rec.games.mahjong<br /> Not yet ratedRating:<br /> show options<br /> Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author<br /> <br /> d...@my-deja.com wrote:<br /> &gt; You mean Nine Pieces (discarder "bao" on immediate win) and Twelve<br /> &gt; Pieces (discarder "bao" for self-draw win) for "Pure One Suit" right?<br /> &gt; That is traditional in HKOS and I am aware of them and we play by these<br /> &gt; rules.<br /> <br /> Okay. Good.<br /> <br /> &gt; But the difference for Big Three Scholar (in Cofa's interpretation) is<br /> &gt; that it is discarder "bao" on self-draw win when only Nine Pieces are<br /> &gt; showing, this is not the same as the Twelve Pieces "bao" of Pure One<br /> &gt; Suit. We all agree on the "bao" on immediate win case for Big Three<br /> &gt; Scholar, it is when the win is not immediate that we have different<br /> &gt; interpretations.<br /> <br /> Ok. I can understand your hesitation in that situation. You provided the<br /> 3rd set of Dragons but that player still might or might not have a ready<br /> hand.<br /> <br /> But what about Big Four Winds? If you provide the 4th set, and that<br /> player then wins by self-pick, is that a bao?<br /> <br /> --<br /> J. R. Fitch<br /> Nine Dragons Software<br /> San Francisco, CA USA<br /> http://www.ninedragons.com<br /> <br /> Reply » Rate this post: Text for clearing space<br /> ==============================END OF MESSAGE=====<br /> <br /> <br /> <b>23&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;From: d...@my-deja.com - view profile<br /> Date: Tues, Aug 8 2006 10:14 am</b><br /> Email: d...@my-deja.com<br /> Groups: rec.games.mahjong<br /> Not yet ratedRating:<br /> show options<br /> Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author<br /> <br /> J. R. Fitch wrote:<br /> &gt; Ok. I can understand your hesitation in that situation. You provided the<br /> &gt; 3rd set of Dragons but that player still might or might not have a ready<br /> &gt; hand.<br /> <br /> Exactly, so our table rule is that it is a "bao" only if there is an<br /> immediate win on the third Dragon; otherwise there is no "bao".<br /> <br /> &gt; But what about Big Four Winds? If you provide the 4th set, and that<br /> &gt; player then wins by self-pick, is that a bao?<br /> <br /> This is slightly different. Now the winning hand has 12-tiles showing<br /> and therefore the player who provided the 4th Wind should be<br /> responsible for a self-draw win (i.e., "bao"). This situation is<br /> similar to the Pure-One-Suit 12-tile "bao" rule.<br /> <br /> Reply » Rate this post: Text for clearing space<br /> ==============================END OF MESSAGE=====<br /> <br /> <br /> <b>24&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;From: Cofa Tsui - view profile<br /> Date: Tues, Aug 8 2006 11:34 am</b><br /> Email: "Cofa Tsui" &lt;I...@cofatsuiTAKETHISOFF.com&gt;<br /> Groups: rec.games.mahjong<br /> Not yet ratedRating:<br /> show options<br /> Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author<br /> <br /> &lt;d...@my-deja.com&gt; wrote in message<br /> <br /> news:1155057270.073196.173240@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...<br /> <br /> - Hide quoted text -<br /> - Show quoted text -<br /> <br /> &gt; J. R. Fitch wrote:<br /> &gt;&gt; Ok. I can understand your hesitation in that situation. You provided the<br /> &gt;&gt; 3rd set of Dragons but that player still might or might not have a ready<br /> &gt;&gt; hand.<br /> <br /> &gt; Exactly, so our table rule is that it is a "bao" only if there is an<br /> &gt; immediate win on the third Dragon; otherwise there is no "bao".<br /> <br /> &gt;&gt; But what about Big Four Winds? If you provide the 4th set, and that<br /> &gt;&gt; player then wins by self-pick, is that a bao?<br /> <br /> &gt; This is slightly different. Now the winning hand has 12-tiles showing<br /> &gt; and therefore the player who provided the 4th Wind should be<br /> &gt; responsible for a self-draw win (i.e., "bao"). This situation is<br /> &gt; similar to the Pure-One-Suit 12-tile "bao" rule.<br /> <br /> I guess the quotes of 9-piece and 12-piece respecting the bao rules are just<br /> for convenience. In practice we normally name the exact pai (e.g., "bao Red<br /> Dragon", "bao East", "bao Wans" or "bao Honours") for the bao.<br /> <br /> The concepts of various "bao selfdraw win" rules in HKOS are consistent with<br /> respect to those relatively high-score hands: Big Four Winds, Big Three<br /> Dragons and Pure Same / Pure Honours. The nature of the cause for the<br /> penalty for providing the third set of Dragons, fourth set of Winds, fourth<br /> set of same suit or Honours, is the same - That is, the "provider" shall pay<br /> the penalty for helping the achievement of the high-score hand; and if the<br /> hand is not immediately won, the penalty is deferred to the time when the<br /> hand is won by selfdraw.<br /> <br /> The consistency and the various rules are part of the tradition of HKOS.<br /> <br /> --<br /> Cofa Tsui<br /> www.iMahjong.com<br /> <br /> Reply » Rate this post: Text for clearing space<br /> ==============================END OF MESSAGE=====<br /> <br /> <br /> <b>25&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;From: Cofa Tsui - view profile<br /> Date: Mon, Aug 7 2006 4:47 pm</b><br /> Email: "Cofa Tsui" &lt;I...@cofatsuiTAKETHISOFF.com&gt;<br /> Groups: rec.games.mahjong<br /> Not yet ratedRating:<br /> show options<br /> Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author<br /> <br /> &lt;d...@my-deja.com&gt; wrote in message<br /> <br /> news:1154975076.094472.179730@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...<br /> <br /> - Hide quoted text -<br /> - Show quoted text -<br /> <br /> &gt; Cofa Tsui wrote:<br /> &gt;&gt; To avoid any confusions, and again, these are traditional rules in HKOS<br /> &gt;&gt; (or<br /> &gt;&gt; traditional house rules if you prefer calling it this way). Should any<br /> &gt;&gt; expert in HKOS ask the question you've asked in the first place? I guess<br /> &gt;&gt; you<br /> &gt;&gt; are just not appreciated the thorough answers I've provided!<br /> <br /> &gt; Don't get me wrong, Cofa. I appreciate all the detail answers you<br /> &gt; provided because they explained your answer with all the possibilities.<br /> &gt; What I didn't appreciate was the legal wording and all the extra words<br /> &gt; (not to mention your unique English terms you use, but that is another<br /> &gt; discussion :-) ). I think HKOS rules are usually quite simple in their<br /> &gt; nature, and so I was looking for the simple answer as usual -- players<br /> &gt; understand there are exceptions and those are the times that make the<br /> &gt; game exciting as you say. In my circle, we only honor the "bao" if it<br /> &gt; is an immediate win, I don't know how "traditional" this rule is.<br /> <br /> OK, if you think your "...the player who supplied the third Dragon pung (not<br /> an immediate win) is responsible for "bao selfdraw"" is not legal at all, is<br /> short enough to cover your needs... then I think that's good for you!<br /> However, I guess when you meet the unexpected exceptions you can always come<br /> back to this post for reference.<br /> <br /> One may understand it's hard for anyone to learn all the traditional stuffs<br /> (the "whole picture") of HKOS within just one small group of players.<br /> <br /> Re:<br /> <br /> &gt; (not to mention your unique English terms you use, but that is another<br /> &gt; discussion :-) ).<br /> <br /> I do have some thoughts to share...<br /> - You have used the terms "Big Three Scholars" and "Green Dragon" in one<br /> single message. I guess both "Scholars" and "Dragons" could be unique<br /> English terms - Unique enough to be used for the same things, in one same<br /> message ^_^<br /> - I have posted my suggestion of the World Unified Mahjong Terminology<br /> discussions in May 2006 (http://www.imahjong.com/maiarchives209.html) and<br /> since then I have used terms recommended in the WUMT Table. Recently, I<br /> noticed that Tom has added his "Preferred" terms in his FAQ 6. I also<br /> noticed that terms like "WIN" (instead of "go out", "mahjong", etc) and<br /> "ELEMENT" (instead of "hand", respecting points or scores of a winning hand)<br /> are also used by other posters now in this newsgroup. I'm quite satisfied as<br /> these all prove that a "standardized list of mahjong terminology" never<br /> exists, and people are now working on towards getting one!<br /> <br /> Cheers!<br /> <br /> --<br /> Cofa Tsui<br /> www.iMahjong.com<br /> <br /> Reply » Rate this post: Text for clearing space<br /> ==============================END OF MESSAGE=====<br /> <br /> <br /> <b>26&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;From: Edwin Phua - view profile<br /> Date: Tues, Aug 8 2006 1:40 am</b><br /> Email: "Edwin Phua" &lt;fant...@pacific.net.sg&gt;<br /> Groups: rec.games.mahjong<br /> Not yet ratedRating:<br /> show options<br /> Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author<br /> <br /> - Hide quoted text -<br /> - Show quoted text -<br /> <br /> d...@my-deja.com wrote:<br /> &gt; Cofa Tsui wrote:<br /> &gt; &gt; Before C discards, A already has two sets of Dragons displayed. At this<br /> &gt; &gt; point, the "Big Three Dragons Alert" is in effect. The alert carries the<br /> &gt; &gt; penalty like this:<br /> &gt; &gt; (b) If anyone discards the thrid Dragon and player A pungs/kongs it (not an<br /> &gt; &gt; immediate win), the discarder will pay the penalty if at a later time player<br /> &gt; &gt; A wins on drawing by himself, AND if his winning hand contains the element<br /> &gt; &gt; of Big Three Dragons. This is where "bao through to the end" takes place. In<br /> &gt; &gt; this "bao" situation, the one who has discarded the third Dragon pays the<br /> &gt; &gt; selfmake scores (three X two times per player).<br /> <br /> &gt; Hmmm... I am no lawyer (and I don't play one on TV either), but this<br /> &gt; sounds like a lot of legal talk. So if player "A already has two sets<br /> &gt; of Dragons displayed" and "A pungs/kongs (the third Dragon)" and "A<br /> &gt; wins on drawing by himself", then can you give an example situation<br /> &gt; where the winning hand DOES NOT "contain the element of Big Three<br /> &gt; Dragons"? I cannot think of a case where all this wording is<br /> &gt; necessary.<br /> <br /> &gt; So your house rule is that the player who supplied the third Dragon<br /> &gt; pung (not an immediate win) is responsible for "bao selfdraw". This is<br /> &gt; a much simpler rule than all that legal if (a), (b), (c)... stuff.<br /> <br /> It is my impression that Cofa's writing of the rule: "If anyone<br /> discard