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Kong Question - When Can I Kong?
From: youngs3@cii3130-20.rcs.rpi.edu (Stephen Young +d'Artagnan+)
Subject: A question on Kongs... Date: 20 May 1999 00:00:00 GMT Message-ID: <7i0389$3ab@cii3130-20.rcs.rpi.edu> Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY. Newsgroups: rec.games.mahjong Hello, I've been playing Hong Kong style mahjongg for a little while as closely as possible to the rules and scoring system in the software from Nine Dragons... However there's a little question that I have which is continuously caused debate with the people I play with... In reference to a Kong... In the rare case that someone is dealt 4 of a kind of a suit on the original deal... can that player claim a kong before the game even starts? I've been arguing fruitlessly with people lately that you can only kong tiles that have been a] discarded and you have the other 3 concealed and b] drawing the 4th from the wall and ONLY at that time... as in you can't save the fourth and use your "kong" later if you don't like what you've picked up... *sigh* problem is that no where have I found a description explaining how to handle Kong's dealt on the original deal... Am I wrong or right? What's the actual ruling on this one folks. And where if possible can I point people to? Thanks in advance Stephen Young youngs3@rpi.edu *************************************End of message From: tarot@notmenetvigator.com (Alan Kwan) Subject: Re: A question on Kongs... Date: 20 May 1999 00:00:00 GMT Message-ID: <37439245.4723041@news.netvigator.com> References: <7i0389$3ab@cii3130-20.rcs.rpi.edu> Organization: Netvigator Newsgroups: rec.games.mahjong On 20 May 1999 00:32:09 -0400, youngs3@cii3130-20.rcs.rpi.edu (Stephen Young +d'Artagnan+) wrote: > I've been playing Hong Kong style mahjongg for a little while >as closely as possible to the rules and scoring system in the software >from Nine Dragons... However there's a little question that I have >which is continuously caused debate with the people I play with... > >In reference to a Kong... >In the rare case that someone is dealt 4 of a kind of a suit on the >original deal... can that player claim a kong before the game even >starts? This is not really rare. >I've been arguing fruitlessly with people lately that you can only kong >tiles that have been a] discarded and you have the other 3 concealed >and b] drawing the 4th from the wall and ONLY at that time... as in >you can't save the fourth and use your "kong" later if you don't like >what you've picked up... IMHO, the argument that kongs 'should' be restricted to be allowed only upon the moment of acquisition, or rules based directly or loosely on said argument, are incorrect. It is nothing but a misconception brought about by poorly written statements attempting to explain the rules of the game. (Imprecise staments like "'When' you have 3 identical tiles in your hand and you draw a 4th, you may declare a concealed kong ...") The principle should be that a "concealed kong" or a "small exposed kong" (adding a 4th tile from the hand to an exposed pung) is allowed 'any time' provided that the player is in possession of the required tiles, but for the sake of streamlining game play (sequence of play/game structure issues), the action is restricted to "one's turn" in practice. In other words, saving 4 identical tiles in the hand and declaring the kong later is allowed not because "it cannot be verified whether the kong contains the newly drawn tile", but because it is on principle allowed, period. You have complete freedom as to how and when you use the playable tiles (i.e. tiles excluding flowers) in your hand, while the claiming of discards is limited to one moment. >*sigh* problem is that no where have I found a description explaining >how to handle Kong's dealt on the original deal... It is allowed, period. The question of (when said tiles are held by someone other than East) whether it can be done before the first discard, or one has to wait until one's first turn, may vary among different players, though I think the latter is more commonly used today. >Am I wrong or right? What's the actual ruling on this one folks. And >where if possible can I point people to? This is one of the most debated MJ rules ... http://www.mahjong.or.jp/rule/ans/ans89.html That article may shed some insight on the topic. It explains the reason why one is not allowed to declare a concealed kong immediately after claiming a discard in Modern Japanese MJ, which is other than the 'misconception' mentioned above. "Live life with Heart." - Alan Kwan / tarot@notmenetvigator.com http://home.netvigator.com/~tarot (hard-core game reviews) DS Editor - http://www.dimension-s.com (please remove anti-spam section "notme" from mailing address) *************************************End of message From: "J. R. Fitch" Subject: Re: A question on Kongs... Date: 20 May 1999 00:00:00 GMT Message-ID: <37440F0D.8DD95C60@ninedragons.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <7i0389$3ab@cii3130-20.rcs.rpi.edu> X-Accept-Language: en Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@remarQ.com X-Trace: 927207065.884.64 S0YUSD2PSF2CCCD86C qube-01.us-ca.remarq.com Organization: Nine Dragons Software MIME-Version: 1.0 NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 13:31:05 GMT Newsgroups: rec.games.mahjong Stephen Young +d'Artagnan+ wrote: > > Hello, > > I've been playing Hong Kong style mahjongg for a little while > as closely as possible to the rules and scoring system in the software > from Nine Dragons... However there's a little question that I have > which is continuously caused debate with the people I play with... > > In reference to a Kong... > In the rare case that someone is dealt 4 of a kind of a suit on the > original deal... can that player claim a kong before the game even > starts? > > I've been arguing fruitlessly with people lately that you can only kong > tiles that have been a] discarded and you have the other 3 concealed > and b] drawing the 4th from the wall and ONLY at that time... as in > you can't save the fourth and use your "kong" later if you don't like > what you've picked up... > > *sigh* problem is that no where have I found a description explaining > how to handle Kong's dealt on the original deal... > > Am I wrong or right? What's the actual ruling on this one folks. And > where if possible can I point people to? Yes, Kongs may be created from 4 tiles which are already in your hand, and as Alan has said, it is most commonly ruled that you must wait until your turn. The 'Pick' menu in HKMJ allows you to: - Kong a freshly picked tile, or - Kong 4 tiles already in your hand, or - convert a melded Pong to a Kong using the picked tile or a tile already in your hand. -- J. R. Fitch Nine Dragons Software 351 Ulloa Street San Francisco, California 94127 415.664.3474 v. 415.564.3161 f. http://www.ninedragons.com jrfitch@ninedragons.com *************************************End of message From: tarot@notmenetvigator.com (Alan Kwan) Subject: Re: A question on Kongs... Date: 20 May 1999 00:00:00 GMT Message-ID: <374438d4.3472865@news.netvigator.com> References: <7i0389$3ab@cii3130-20.rcs.rpi.edu> <37440F0D.8DD95C60@ninedragons.com> Organization: Netvigator Newsgroups: rec.games.mahjong On Thu, 20 May 1999 06:33:01 -0700, "J. R. Fitch" >Stephen Young +d'Artagnan+ wrote: >> >> In reference to a Kong... >> In the rare case that someone is dealt 4 of a kind of a suit on the >> original deal... can that player claim a kong before the game even >> starts? > >Yes, Kongs may be created from 4 tiles which are >already in your hand, and as Alan has said, it is >most commonly ruled that you must wait until your >turn. Actually, I'm not very sure whether the "correct" (Classical) rules allow making a kong at the very start of a game, but IMO the common rule is good enough. There is a reason that the timing in which concealed kongs (and "small exposed kongs") are allowed (in general) is during one's turn. Between the principle that they should be allowed 'any time' and the desire to have a streamlined, structured sequence-of-play, it is desirable to allow kongs when and only when they are most useful. On one's turn, the supplement tile makes a significant difference because one is about to discard. Seeing the supplement tile gives one more information for choosing the best discard, and one can also throw the supplement tile if it is no good. The supplement tile frequently impacts the play, so one should be allowed to kong on his turn in accordance with the spirit of the principle. OTOH, allowing one to make a concealed kong during other times (such as at the very start) is less likely to make a difference. True, one may get a 'good' supplement tile which in turn allows him to claim a discard before his next turn, but the likelihood is low: it makes a real difference only /if/ the supplement tile is good *and* /if/ the discard to be claimed is actually discarded before the player's next turn. (Compare with the certainty that one /is/ going to choose and make a discard on one's turn.) Because it is not very likely to impact the game, the common rule gets adopted because it makes matters simple. "Live life with Heart." - Alan Kwan / tarot@notmenetvigator.com http://home.netvigator.com/~tarot (hard-core game reviews) DS Editor - http://www.dimension-s.com (please remove anti-spam section "notme" from mailing address) *************************************End of message From: nater001@wxs.nl (Feico Nater) Subject: Re: A question on Kongs... Date: 21 May 1999 00:00:00 GMT Message-ID: <37475f86.49445123@news.wxs.nl> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <7i0389$3ab@cii3130-20.rcs.rpi.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Complaints-To: abuse@wxs.nl X-Trace: reader3.wxs.nl 927264624 299424 195.121.177.80 (21 May 1999 05:30:24 GMT) Organization: World Access / Planet Internet Mime-Version: 1.0 Reply-To: nater001@wxs.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 May 1999 05:30:24 GMT Newsgroups: rec.games.mahjong On 20 May 1999 00:32:09 -0400, youngs3@cii3130-20.rcs.rpi.edu (Stephen Young +d'Artagnan+) wrote in rec.games.mahjong: >In reference to a Kong... >In the rare case that someone is dealt 4 of a kind of a suit on the >original deal... can that player claim a kong before the game even >starts? > >I've been arguing fruitlessly with people lately that you can only kong >tiles that have been a] discarded and you have the other 3 concealed >and b] drawing the 4th from the wall and ONLY at that time... as in >you can't save the fourth and use your "kong" later if you don't like >what you've picked up... I am not sure what you can do when the kong is dealt at the beginning of the game. One principle is that you meld a kong immediately after acquiring it by drawing from the wall. Another principle is that nobody will know that the drawn tile is among the melded tiles, and it could be that you had the four equal tiles from the outset of the game. This means that you can draw a tile, put it in your hand, take four equal tiles from your hand and meld a closed kong. It doesn't matter whether the kong includes the drawn tile. You can also meld a kong, draw a loose tile, meld another kong, draw another loose tile, etc. But you cannot meld a kong after melding a chow or pung. -- Feico Nater, Netherlands http://home.wxs.nl/~taaleffect --- In matters of commerce the fault of the Dutch is offering too little and asking too much. *************************************End of message From: tarot@notmenetvigator.com (Alan Kwan) Subject: Re: A question on Kongs... Date: 21 May 1999 00:00:00 GMT Message-ID: <374556d6.2147461@news.netvigator.com> References: <7i0389$3ab@cii3130-20.rcs.rpi.edu> <37475f86.49445123@news.wxs.nl> Organization: Netvigator Newsgroups: rec.games.mahjong On Fri, 21 May 1999 05:29:57 GMT, nater001@wxs.nl (Feico Nater) wrote: >On 20 May 1999 00:32:09 -0400, youngs3@cii3130-20.rcs.rpi.edu (Stephen Young >+d'Artagnan+) wrote in rec.games.mahjong: > >>In reference to a Kong... >>In the rare case that someone is dealt 4 of a kind of a suit on the >>original deal... can that player claim a kong before the game even >>starts? >> >>I've been arguing fruitlessly with people lately that you can only kong >>tiles that have been a] discarded and you have the other 3 concealed >>and b] drawing the 4th from the wall and ONLY at that time... as in >>you can't save the fourth and use your "kong" later if you don't like >>what you've picked up... > >I am not sure what you can do when the kong is dealt at the beginning of the >game. > >One principle is that you meld a kong immediately after acquiring it by drawing >from the wall. Another principle is that nobody will know that the drawn tile is >among the melded tiles, and it could be that you had the four equal tiles from >the outset of the game. IMO, the first "principle" should be subject to questioning. In mahjong, one has complete freedom as to how and when he uses the playable tiles in his hand. For example, when I hold C-2234 and I draw a C2, I do not have to decide whether the tile is being used to form a C2 triplet or a C-234 sequence right away. Then when I draw yet another C2, why am I supposed to decide right away whether it is to be kong'ed or not? If I can put the third C2 into a sequence and then change my mind later and put it into a triplet, why am I not supposed to be allowed to put the fourth C2 into a sequence and change my mind later and make a kong? Melding a concealed kong should not be compared with claiming discards. Claiming a discard is limited to one moment because a discard is being claimed. Melding a concealed kong should not be limited to one moment because no discard is being claimed. So I maintain that the reason that making a kong with hand tiles other than the newly drawn tile is allowed is not because "nobody will know ..." (actually, there is a mechanism, which has been there since Classical, to verify it if it is supposed to be verified), but rather because it is allowed by the principle that one has freedom in playing his hand tiles, that concealed kongs are allowed 'any time' rather than only at the moment of acquisition (but restricted to one's turn for practical reasons). >But you cannot meld a kong after melding a chow or pung. The Japanese article on Mahjong Walker (see my previous reply for the link) explicitly mentions that "in Chinese mahjong, there is the rule that melding a kong is allowed after a chow or pung". "Live life with Heart." - Alan Kwan / tarot@notmenetvigator.com http://home.netvigator.com/~tarot (hard-core game reviews) DS Editor - http://www.dimension-s.com (please remove anti-spam section "notme" from mailing address) *************************************End of message From: "Tom Sloper" Subject: Re: A question on Kongs... Date: 21 May 1999 00:00:00 GMT Message-ID: <7i445i$icd$1@news.cerf.net> References: <7i0389$3ab@cii3130-20.rcs.rpi.edu> <37475f86.49445123@news.wxs.nl> <374556d6.2147461@news.netvigator.com> X-Priority: 3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cerf.net X-Trace: news.cerf.net 927306738 18829 206.17.229.135 (21 May 1999 17:12:18 GMT) Organization: Activision X-MSMail-Priority: Normal NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 May 1999 17:12:18 GMT Newsgroups: rec.games.mahjong Feico Nater, after a prolonged period of silence at the newsgroup, wrote: >>But you cannot meld a kong after melding a chow or pung. Alan Kwan responded: >The Japanese article on Mahjong Walker (see my previous reply for the >link) explicitly mentions that "in Chinese mahjong, there is the rule >that melding a kong is allowed after a chow or pung". Quite right. Here is the sequence of events: 0. Player W is already holding 222234 in the hand, along with another 2 or more incomplete sets. 1. Player S discards a tile which completes one of W's incomplete sets. 2. W chows or pongs South's tile. 3. W decides to expose the kong of 2s, and does so. 4. W takes a loose tile from the back of the wall (or from the kong box, depending on which rules are in use and which terminology is in use). 5. W discards a tile (perhaps breaking up the now-incomplete 3-4 set). -- Tom Sloper, Activision Executive Producer, Shanghai tsloper@activision.com http://www.activision.com/games/dynasty (Opinions expressed are mine, not those of my employer) *************************************End of message From: tarot@notmenetvigator.com (Alan Kwan) Subject: Re: A question on Kongs... Date: 21 May 1999 00:00:00 GMT Message-ID: <3745ef9a.1559048@news.netvigator.com> References: <7i0389$3ab@cii3130-20.rcs.rpi.edu> <37475f86.49445123@news.wxs.nl> <374556d6.2147461@news.netvigator.com> <7i445i$icd$1@news.cerf.net> Organization: Netvigator Newsgroups: rec.games.mahjong On Fri, 21 May 1999 10:11:50 -0700, "Tom Sloper" wrote: >Feico Nater, after a prolonged period of silence at the newsgroup, wrote: >>>But you cannot meld a kong after melding a chow or pung. > >Alan Kwan responded: >>The Japanese article on Mahjong Walker (see my previous reply for the >>link) explicitly mentions that "in Chinese mahjong, there is the rule >>that melding a kong is allowed after a chow or pung". > >Quite right. Here is the sequence of events: > >0. Player W is already holding 222234 in the hand, along with another 2 or >more incomplete sets. >1. Player S discards a tile which completes one of W's incomplete sets. >2. W chows or pongs South's tile. >3. W decides to expose the kong of 2s, and does so. >4. W takes a loose tile from the back of the wall (or from the kong box, >depending on which rules are in use and which terminology is in use). >5. W discards a tile (perhaps breaking up the now-incomplete 3-4 set). The sequence is correct. Though in practice, 222234 is not a pattern one would normally kong from. ^_^ More realistically, one may be holding 22224 or 2222345 and hoping to get a 3 or 13456 respectively, but he kongs the 2 when he has run out of unconnected, useless tiles to discard. "Live life with Heart." - Alan Kwan / tarot@notmenetvigator.com http://home.netvigator.com/~tarot (hard-core game reviews) DS Editor - http://www.dimension-s.com (please remove anti-spam section "notme" from mailing address) *************************************End of message From: Cofa Tsui Subject: Re: A question on Kongs... Date: 22 May 1999 00:00:00 GMT Message-ID: <7i5ivg$30g$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <7i0389$3ab@cii3130-20.rcs.rpi.edu> X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x41.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 207.34.182.35 Organization: Deja.com - Share what you know. Learn what you don't. X-Article-Creation-Date: Sat May 22 06:31:12 1999 GMT Newsgroups: rec.games.mahjong X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.51 [en] (Win95; U) In article <7i0389$3ab@cii3130-20.rcs.rpi.edu>, youngs3@cii3130-20.rcs.rpi.edu (Stephen Young +d'Artagnan+) wrote: > > Hello, > > I've been playing Hong Kong style mahjongg for a little while > as closely as possible to the rules and scoring system in the software > from Nine Dragons... However there's a little question that I have > which is continuously caused debate with the people I play with... > > In reference to a Kong... > In the rare case that someone is dealt 4 of a kind of a suit on the > original deal... can that player claim a kong before the game even > starts? Hi Stephen, If you want answers as close to HK style as possible, the following might help resolve your debate: 1. The first move (turn, etc.) always belongs to the Jonga (Dealer, or East, etc.) of a Game. A player other than the Jonga having four identical tiles in hand in the beginning of a Game, simply, cannot kong. > > I've been arguing fruitlessly with people lately that you can only kong > tiles that have been a] discarded and you have the other 3 concealed > and b] drawing the 4th from the wall and ONLY at that time... as in > you can't save the fourth and use your "kong" later if you don't like > what you've picked up... > 2. According to rules as close to HK style as possible, the answers to your questions are: Q(a): correct. Q(b): wrong. (When you have just drawn the 4th identical tiles of your hand, you can kong it right away, OR, keep all 4 identical tiles in hand and any time when you have just drawn a tile again, kong at that time.) 3. If you have just drawn a tile and decide to kong, the Kong you make is different from the type of Kong you make upon a discarded tile. > *sigh* problem is that no where have I found a description explaining > how to handle Kong's dealt on the original deal... > > Am I wrong or right? What's the actual ruling on this one folks. And > where if possible can I point people to? > 4. There are many aspects of a Kong AND of making a Kong. You could hardly find one single book (whether a rulebook or a book simply describing the game) that could give you ALL answers about Kong - answers that can be based on all rules from within the same book. 5. Despite the possibility of many variations you may find in different situations (discussions without written rules to rely on) or among rulebooks (books that provide "rules" but when problem arises, the "rules" of the SAME BOOK itself could not provide an answer - therefore the reader has to look for answers from "other rules"), the rulebook International Mahjong Rules (IMJ Rules) has all the rules, in writing and from within the same book, that will give you all the answers about Kong (and others). Try it. -- COFA TSUI IMJ Rules, the world's 1st full version mahjong rules http://www.cofatsui.com/mahjong.html --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- ---Share what you know. Learn what you don't.--- *************************************End of message |
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